May 16, 2008
This Bugs Me - Blame the Mom and Pops
A couple of days ago, Lynette Chandler posted about an interesting discovery she made in the Q&A section of PC Magazine.
Apparently, Neil J. Rubenking, the software expert at PCMag was asked for advice on avoiding spam when giving out email addresses. Part of Rubenking’s shocking answer included the following quote:
“When you buy something at a small, lesser-known online store, there’s a decent chance they will sell your address to spammers.”
and
“Sign up for a newsletter? Your address could certainly get sold.“
Reading Lynette’s post, I was rather peeved. Not at her, of course, but at this guy’s assignment of blame on the little guy, when most of us truly experienced know that it’s not Kate’s Pretty Bows (made up name, of course), operating out of Kate’s basement that is selling information. It’s the BIG companies with their 40-page long terms and disclaimers.
As I wrote on Lynette’s blog:
“That’s quite an assumption [on his part]. Morals and ethics aside, I don’t think most smaller online retailers are aware of or would know how to get into the lucrative opportunity of selling personal information. It’s the big companies that know and do this, unless they explicitly state they don’t.”
So, what do you think? Whose really selling our information here?
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I am with you on this one Alice, it is the bigger companies who I feel are the ones who are selling our information to spammers. Many people I work with, and even myself do not know how to do something like this or another point are too busy trying to do their business they don’t need one more thing to try to figure out how to do.
While there are some unethical sites out there that do catch and keep emails and sell them, I believe (my opinion) that they are not the small mom and pop online businesses who are selling their bows and toys etc. That is irritating and one more thing those of us “smaller” online businesses will have to overcome now that people will be reading it in PC Magazine.
For instance I signed up for the no call list, and one major company started calling me again even though I am on that list. After the 5th call in one day I asked how they could keep calling me, their reply-”Well you called us” I got to thinking…I did call but I called to ask about a product price…so now they are going to be calling me all the time because I called them for a simple answer. Brother! Same with selling emails…
If anyone knows of a good way to stop spam totally I am all for hearing about it, but I know as well as anyone that the real spammers know and have top quality software that can go around just about any defense, so for now I deal with what I get and hit the delete button…frustrating YES, bothersome YES, but honestly I don’t have time to keep trying to outwit the spammers who seem to get a joy out of sending email that will never be read.
Thank you for sharing Alice.
Rebbekah White
Yeah, that peeves me too. I can’t count how many times I’ve signed up for something at a big box type store and started getting inundated with email from the “partners” of the store. They make it tricky because often you have to check a box to NOT receive emails from other advertisers, and if you happen to make a mistake and forget a field and hit the back button, it automatically checks the box again.
I don’t recall ever getting spam after signing up for a wahm or other net marketer’s newsletter.
I am STILL trying to get off of Home Depot’s list after multiple attempts. Grr…
Oh you have got to be kidding me! Yeah, you’re not the only one this bugs!
I’m very disappointed in PC Mag for making this kind of an assumption. And that itself disappoints me - it was nothing more than an assumption coming across as fact. Those who don’t know any better are going to think just that. After all, he’s an expert, right?
Alice, you’re dead on that it is the bigger companies that pull things such as this.
This actually bugged me enough that I headed to the PC Mag website hoping I could find it in the “Ask Neil” section. If I had found it, I was going to leave my own thoughts and encourage others to do the same.
I hope that Lynnette intends to write her own letter to the editor and share her thoughts!
Hi Alicia, I have to agree with you. I had to change email addresses several times in the past 10 years because of all the spam coming from the “big stores”. Like I would ever sign-up for something from “V-Secret” or “male inhancements unlimited” :0)
I hadn’t seen Carrie’s reply before I posted my own but she made a good point.
In all honesty, if you’re going to get spam from a work at home mom or any other small business - it’s going to be from that individual only. It’s not because your name got sold from one list to another, to another and so forth.
This sucks. It truly does peeve me too when they blame the small business owners. I’ve had my issues with big business before and it’s usually them that cause most of the problems.
OK, just last month a telemarketer phoned my home and we found out it was the phone company that sold our information to them. The small business owner has way more ethical value than the big boys because we know that this it our livelihood. The big companies have big lawyers who know how to jump through the hoops.
I think one reason WAHMs especially DON’T resort to giving out email addresses is because, all too often, WE’RE the targets of spammers. So that makes us even more careful about keeping our email list subscribers happy.
I hate the ones that say “You’re receiving this email because you signed up at one of our sponsors.” Come to find out, they have 50 million partners, so you can’t find out which one - AND you get 50 million spam emails to boot!
Ouch! What an assumption towards all us small business, work at home people. Like others have said, I’ve had issues with spam from big companies but never, not once have I ever signed up for something from another WAHM and had spam issues. This ticks me off that we were pegged as the bad ones. I hate it when articles are posted in magazines and they don’t have their facts straight.
The phone company who are the main culprits. I intentially changed my name with my phone company to make it a little obscure to test my theory.
Suffice it to say, I was able to conclude they were the ones who’ve sold my newly created name to every other small and big business in town.
Please don’t lets whine and bitch about this but contact the editor of the magazine.
Aren’t any of you gals and guys lawyers? shooting from the hip / mouth and defamation are unacceptable.
Alex
The funny thing is that just below the REply box there is an anti spam script!
Exactly!
Anita suggested something similar, Alex. If you have the contact info, feel free to share.
But Alex, you lost me on the reply box thing? Are you talking about on this blog? How does it relate to your comment. I’m slow today.
Besides the thought posted by Rebbekah that most Mom & Pop shops wouldn’t even know how to go about selling their lists, there always this: Why would we WANT to? We have worked very hard to get those customers, and make them loyal to our products or services. Why risk alienating them or having them find something else to spend their money on? That would be like cutting my own throat - I may get a short-term financial kick, but it would take me a long time to recoup future sales if those customers wander away…
I agree with LaTara, our list is like gold to us and we value them because small businesses are in the “relationship” business. Besides, I admit, my list is quite small, but really, what big business would even be interested in my small list?? I’m considered “peanuts” to them, LOL. That Neal may be an “expert” but his answer sounds like deflection of the truth about the big boys.
We may be small businesses but we work harder if not more, just to get our name out there, nevermind wasting time tarnishing our reputation by spamming/selling our list to spammers. I don’t read that magazine, now I’m glad I don’t.
It’s funny. I sign up for something on HGTV or DIY and I am inundated with spam mail and I am not talking about just a little, it is a lot! It is true though that some of the small guys do it too. I signed up for a newsletter from a jewelry maker and was also inundated, this time though it also included spam fraud emails i.e. “I am in London trying to get money my brother’s estate has for me, please help by….”. I’m sorry to say though this has happened to me signing up for mom type blogs also. Big boy companies and small mom and pops, you just leave yourself open when giving your information to anyone. That seems to be the price we pay for doing anything on the internet.
On response to the post about small-time businesses. I think he needs to rethink his wording. Did he not start out as small time before he was well known.
As a small business owner for over 17 years now, my newsletters are the best source for my customers. I never share thier emails with anyone for no reason what so-ever. They trust me and I would never abuse their trust.
Thru emails and newsletters I have gained a reputation for my kindness and thoughtfulness of others.
Is that not what’s important to customers!
Anyway, their’s my 2-cents. :-)–Love your email/newsletter.
Ooh! That really gets my goat. The complete opposite is true. I had my website hosted at a large hosting company and I used to get hordes of junk email at my own dot com’s email addresses, the funny thing is when I switched to a smaller hosting company, I get virtually no spam now…I wonder why, LOL. *Sigh* Any small businesses I subscribe too only send email I specifically requested from them (i.e. newsletters, periodic emails, etc.) In fact I prefer dealing with smaller companies due to far better and more personalized customer service on the whole.
It’s unfortunate that someone of such a popular magazine would spread such untruths. It’s clear to me that this person really has no idea of what he is talking about, and this is a magazine a lot of people trust and like.
As Alice said, it’s most assuredly the larger, well-known companies that involve themselves with selling their email lists because they are the companies more likely to get into that business. Selling my list of names would do nothing for me other than to give me a instant few dollars and then what? That’s not what we’re about.
As for me, I value my readers, I work hard to build trust and relationships, as most smaller businesses tend to do, why would I throw that away?
I’d be interested to find out what Neil’s rationale on this is.
“It’s the big companies that know and do this, unless they explicitly state they don’t.”
Many still do, they just aren’t announced as a “3rd party”.
Alice
That is awful and worrying isn’t it. That someone in a popular and presumably widely read magazine would say that is truly sad. I guess this is a US based magazine as whilst the name is the same as one in the UK I don’t recognise the author’s name?
But rather than bemoan it let’s ask ourselves two questions. Firstly what has happened that someone has got that impression and is prepared to state it as a fact? Don’t we need to try and understand why he has that view? Secondly what can be done to rebut the proposition? Has someone in the US put together a counter argument with evidence/facts to demonstrate that he is wrong and submitted it to their forum or indeed their Editor?
To rework a famous quote “all it takes for an untruth to become accepted fact is that one person does nothing.”
Take care
Paul
Alice,
I can tell you here and now, as a consultant for small online businesses that, Neil J. Rubenking’s recent comments are a bunch of BS. I have never came across a situation the 25+ active clients that I have, where they would be selling personal information. This peeves me off too Alice. It’s just another example of how everybody takes a crap on the “Little Guy”. Fact is, small businesses make up the backbone of this country with more than 70% of todays businesses being a small business!
However, no matter what us “Little Guys” will figure out how to overcome this latest obstacle too!
Thank you for the voice of reason, Paul, but I’m not sure that one of your suggestions applies here. You wrote:
“Secondly what can be done to rebut the proposition? Has someone in the US put together a counter argument with evidence/facts to demonstrate that he is wrong and submitted it to their forum or indeed their Editor?”
I would seriously doubt that he has the evidence/fact to back up his claim. It’s simply an opinion, stated as fact. I doubt there are statistics readily available to support either position. Nor do I think that those types of statistics could accurately be gathered.
I can make an assumption on WHY I think he has the opinion. It’s because government bodies and others advising consumers about Internet use always say that it’s the little guy that will screw you.
Now, I do have to say, that if we’re talking about online shopping safety - it probably is safer to go with an established, well-known company name. So I can understand THAT advice. However, there are plenty of ways to make your shopping with smaller stores safer, but those ways are rarely mentioned.
To me, it seems that Mr. Rubenking has taken that same shopping safety advice and decided to apply it to email and selling of information. I may be wrong and perhaps there is another reason he has stated this opinion, but I’d be willing to bet I’m on the right track.
Ok kids… it’s obvious that Neil needs to be enlightened… so let’s direct all this complaining and argument to the man himself! You’ll find his email below which was clearly posted on the PCmag website… Let’s enlighten him and share our thoughts and feelings!
Neil J. Rubenking
neil_rubenking@ziffdavis.com
I use a different email address for signing up for newsletters, and I have never had a single spam message sent to that address.
Thanks for the email, Linda. I’m sure those who would like to express their opinion directly will do so.
But the public opinion posted here will also be seen for a long time. I don’t believe it is all in vain.
I’ve never done a formal study, but I’ve devoted more effort than anyone else I’ve heard of to track down where the junk in my inbox came from. Register software with many big companies = spam. Give your e-mail address to major online retailers = spam. Reply to a spammer = tons more spam, scammers, and phishers. Publish your e-mail address in ads = scammers and phishers.
Those are the only causes I’ve ever identified. True, I do a little bit of research and / or looking a site over before I deal with any business I’ve never heard of before. I’m usually satisfied with the results. In my experience, a smaller business is more likely to treat me decently, because they need my business. Larger businesses have the attitude “there’s a whole herd of people out there - even if we drive you away, they’ll keep coming”.
For avoiding spam, or for avoiding any other annoyance associated with dealing with businesses in the modern world, my experience and my advice is this: the more you stay away from large companies and deal with smaller ones, the happier you’ll be. That includes manufactured products when possible: my next computer will be built by a small shop from components I specify, to my own design. I’m confident it will last longer, suit me better, give me less problems - and I won’t ever have to call MegaCorp’s Tech “Support”.
I just started doing that a few months ago, Elle, and same here… so far I’ve never gotten spam at my newsletter address. My personal email is very clean also. I use it only for “personal” things like bills and family/friends stuff.
I’d like to add that this isn’t just a problem with spamming emails. It also goes on in direct mail. Just about 6 months ago I purchased something that I wanted to have in my maiden name. Don’t you know since then, my mailbox has been overflowing with SO MUCH junk I still can hardly believe it, and it is all coming in my maiden name, which I had not used for over 15 years, until that purchase.
It is definitely NOT the little guy selling our info to whoever and the neighbors. Anyone operating a small business with even a shred of ethics has every right to be insulted by that remark.
I’ve signed up for a number of newsletters with small businesses. Everyone of them specifically stated that they wouldn’t sell my info. The few times I’ve made the mistake of signing up with a large company is when I start getting “associate” spam. It’s pretty obvious.
The comment in the article sounds like a case of mouth running without brain in gear…
That is surely pretty brassy of him to make such a broad assumption. Small home-businesses rely on their relationship marketing and surely wouldn’t do anything to jeopardize the priceless relationships they create.
I HATE to play devils advocate here, especially knowing how much some people here Hate the devil, (BTW the Bible says Love your enemies)but maybe Neil J. Rubensandwich has something that strikes a raw nerve here and needs to be asked to “clear the air”. Alice, have you been selling your list to spammers? Nothing personal, just asking. I think the IMPLICATION HERE is that you are not, but can you, as the Scientologists would say, “become CLEAR” on this issue?!! heheheh
No, I don’t sell my subscriber/customer lists.
Knowing most of the people who posted here, I don’t believe they are either. Don’t think it hit any raw nerves in the way you are referring, Debbie.
Sorry Alice, didn’t mean to piss you off,
it was just a joke! I absolutely believe that
it’s the big corporations that are doing this
and NOT ANY small mom and pop home businesses.
Rubensandwich is a nut to say what he said.
No doubt about it!
Sorry Alice, didn’t mean irratate anyone,
it was just a joke to show how rediculous his claim was! I absolutely believe that it\’s the big corporations that are doing this and NOT ANY small mom and pop home businesses. Rubensandwich is a nut to say what he said. No doubt about it!
I figured it was a joke, but you asked…so I answered.
Looks like one comment went into moderation. You didn’t make me mad, but I wasn’t completely sure it was a joke and I’m sure those who don’t know, wouldn’t be sure at all either. I just answered, so the question was answered. Don’t worry, Debbie.
Moronic story, that’s for sure. Hey, come buy my list; it’s less than 200 people, but they’re top quality. I’ll take $50,000 for it. Whose getting paid, me or that guy with over 100,000 subscribers? Sheesh.